(12-18-2023, 01:03 AM)Jaguar Warrior Wrote: [ -> ]I wish that Trevor was the type of QB that willed his teams to wins in dire straits. Montana, Marino, Elway, Brady, Manning, Favre, Mahomes. I want him to be elite and carry this team. But right now he just looks like a good QB that only truly excels if the team around him is pristine.
Those are probably the 7 greatest QBs of all time. And I'm pretty all of them only won big only when they had HoF teammates and/or coaches.
Also even counting up all their super bowls that still leaves more than half of super bowls not won by those elite quarterbacks.
Who are those other guys in this team? No one else on the team is within shouting distance of a HoF conversation.
Trevor still needs to be better, yes. But he isn't the only issue.
(12-18-2023, 02:49 AM)rpr52121 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 01:03 AM)Jaguar Warrior Wrote: [ -> ]I wish that Trevor was the type of QB that willed his teams to wins in dire straits. Montana, Marino, Elway, Brady, Manning, Favre, Mahomes. I want him to be elite and carry this team. But right now he just looks like a good QB that only truly excels if the team around him is pristine.
Those are probably the 7 greatest QBs of all time. And I'm pretty sure all of them only won big only when they had HoF teammates and/or coaches.
Also even counting up all their super bowls that still leaves more than half of super bowls not won by those elite quarterbacks.
Who are those other guys in this team? No one else on the team is within shouting distance of a HoF conversation.
Trevor still needs to be better, yes. But he isn't the only issue.
(12-18-2023, 02:31 AM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 01:32 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]No because he is struggling to do that now with below average WRs, middle of the pack oline, a top 5 HC and top 5 defense.
Yeah, struggling with 3,700 YDs and 25TD.
Mahomes 3,700 Yds, 25TDs, 13 Ints
Lawrence 3,500 Yds, 22TDs, 10 Ints
Man that's a huge difference right there. You really think Mahomes has a worse situation then Lawrence does right now.
He has to learn to read the field and not just to execute the playbook otherwise he will never be elite and remain a Kirk Cousins.
(12-18-2023, 04:38 AM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]He has to learn to read the field and not just to execute the playbook otherwise he will never be elite and remain a Kirk Cousins.
How does one read the field when they have to get rid of the ball in less than 2.5 seconds or be sacked? You have to have time to read the field, you also have to have an OC who doesn't force you to be a one read QB.
(12-18-2023, 04:53 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 04:38 AM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]He has to learn to read the field and not just to execute the playbook otherwise he will never be elite and remain a Kirk Cousins.
How does one read the field when they have to get rid of the ball in less than 2.5 seconds or be sacked? You have to have time to read the field, you also have to have an OC who doesn't force you to be a one read QB.
Yeah I am with you, that they have to create an offense that is more vertical, that allows Lawrence to read the field and not have so many one-read plays in the playbook. Otherwise it will never improve. I thought the O-Line was okay for the most part today, in pass blocking. But it has not been as good earlier in the year, thats for sure.
Those things are all part of the process to get to the Lawrence-the-field-reader and away from Lawrence-the-game-manager.
(12-18-2023, 04:38 AM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]He has to learn to read the field and not just to execute the playbook otherwise he will never be elite and remain a Kirk Cousins.
He doesn't have time to read the field, and we don't have a running attack to keep the pass rush off of him. The opposing defense pins their ears back and rushes the passer and covers tight because they know he has to get the ball out quickly.
(12-18-2023, 04:53 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 04:38 AM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]He has to learn to read the field and not just to execute the playbook otherwise he will never be elite and remain a Kirk Cousins.
How does one read the field when they have to get rid of the ball in less than 2.5 seconds or be sacked? You have to have time to read the field, you also have to have an OC who doesn't force you to be a one read QB.
It's not the OC. It's the O-line. Can't run the ball. Therefore, don't have time to read the field. The OC knows this, and has to call plays to get the ball out quickly.
(12-18-2023, 12:01 AM)SamusAranX Wrote: [ -> ]And his fumbles. God his fumbles.
This is my only gripe. The miscues and decisions like throwing that pass in the flat to Washington will get better.
My only concern is his ball security. Which at this point, we may just have to live with.
(12-18-2023, 04:53 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 04:38 AM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]He has to learn to read the field and not just to execute the playbook otherwise he will never be elite and remain a Kirk Cousins.
How does one read the field when they have to get rid of the ball in less than 2.5 seconds or be sacked? You have to have time to read the field, you also have to have an OC who doesn't force you to be a one read QB.
You contradicted your point there. If the QB doesn't have time to read the field, then how can the OC make him more than a one-read QB? Can't do it. The OC has to call plays to get the ball out quickly.
(12-18-2023, 03:15 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 02:31 AM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, struggling with 3,700 YDs and 25TD.
Mahomes 3,700 Yds, 25TDs, 13 Ints
Lawrence 3,500 Yds, 22TDs, 10 Ints
Man that's a huge difference right there. You really think Mahomes has a worse situation then Lawrence does right now.
Mahomes best WR would be our 4th or 5th string WR barring injuries to Kirk and Zay. Kelce is his only legitimate target on offense, and their RBs don't come close to ETN.
(12-18-2023, 09:23 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:15 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes 3,700 Yds, 25TDs, 13 Ints
Lawrence 3,500 Yds, 22TDs, 10 Ints
Man that's a huge difference right there. You really think Mahomes has a worse situation then Lawrence does right now.
Mahomes best WR would be our 4th or 5th string WR barring injuries to Kirk and Zay. Kelce is his only legitimate target on offense, and their RBs don't come close to ETN.
Can we stop with the Mahomes Vs. Lawrence stuff?
Lawrence just had his 50th career start last night. Mahomes just had his 94th, more than double if you factor in the post season games. You're also talking about two completely, yet, similar coaches in Reid and Pederson, with Reid being the guy that started Pederson's coaching path to begin with, and, had plenty of success in Philadelphia.
The only major differences in their careers? Mahomes had guys like Hill and a younger Kelce for awhile and their front office was swinging for the fences every off season to add an offensive tackle or guard to protect him.
I just think we need to worry about Lawrence being Lawrence. What can this team do to make him better? So far, he's playing more like Buffalo's Josh Allen early into his career. The turnovers need to be cleaned up. I don't think there's anyway anybody on here can argue that.
But, what's more evident? He's started helping this team win football games. That's more important to me. It hasn't been pretty at times. It's rare that it is in the NFL. I genuinely don't care. As long as they find ways to win. If they can just keep building around him? The rest will ultimately take care of itself.
Coaching may be part of the problem as another clock management debacle before the half just can’t happen and coaches are responsible for that unless Trevor went rogue. But Trevor needs to know the situation as well and can’t avoid criticism there.
For whatever part of the play call there is on the coaches sending that hurry up play in, that falls on Doug not Press. Even if Press called for it, Doug is listening and can veto and should have vetoed. Not calling for anyone’s head as Doug is a great coach and offensive mind, but situational awareness is his responsibility above anyone else and it has been bad this year.
(12-18-2023, 09:38 AM)Jaguarmeister Wrote: [ -> ]Coaching may be part of the problem as another clock management debacle before the half just can’t happen and coaches are responsible for that unless Trevor went rogue. But Trevor needs to know the situation as well and can’t avoid criticism there.
For whatever part of the play call there is on the coaches sending that hurry up play in, that falls on Doug not Press. Even if Press called for it, Doug is listening and can veto and should have vetoed. Not calling for anyone’s head as Doug is a great coach and offensive mind, but situational awareness is his responsibility above anyone else and it has been bad this year.
Agreed. That's happened multiples times this year where they had opportunities to find easy points before halftime but due to poor situational awareness between the players and the coaching staff they continue to shoot themselves in the foot.
There's plenty of blame and finger pointing to go around on this team right now. Which is atypical for a team that's barely hanging onto an above average record in general. Last year they were on the plus side of being lucky, this year, they're on the minus side of being lucky.
At some point, they need to collectively take accountability, stop making excuses and just get the damn job done.
Trevor had his worst game in a long time yesterday.
When did the supposed concussion occur?
(12-18-2023, 09:23 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:15 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes 3,700 Yds, 25TDs, 13 Ints
Lawrence 3,500 Yds, 22TDs, 10 Ints
Man that's a huge difference right there. You really think Mahomes has a worse situation then Lawrence does right now.
Mahomes best WR would be our 4th or 5th string WR barring injuries to Kirk and Zay. Kelce is his only legitimate target on offense, and their RBs don't come close to ETN.
You say that but Rice has 100 less yards then our number 2 receiver and 1 more touchdown.
Their starting running back is averaging 4.3 yards a carry ETN is averaging 3.7.
(12-18-2023, 01:06 AM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]Would you currently give him a $150-200 million dollar contract? I would not. He has potential but also very inconsistent.
absolutely.
You can't see the throws he makes and say he's the cause of the inconsistency. Get him a band of big uglies with a mean streak in front of him and we'll see if things change.
We have no run game to keep Ds honest. We are the most horizontal offense I've ever watched.
Look at who else are getting those 150-200 deals. Do you think we'd be better with Geno, or Derek Carr? Maybe we should darft the next Bortles, Gabby, Zach or Trey.
Without a doubt, I feel better with him there than I do with any reset option.
(12-18-2023, 03:15 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 02:31 AM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, struggling with 3,700 YDs and 25TD.
Mahomes 3,700 Yds, 25TDs, 13 Ints
Lawrence 3,500 Yds, 22TDs, 10 Ints
Man that's a huge difference right there. You really think Mahomes has a worse situation then Lawrence does right now.
....well, Trevor doesn't have Kadarius Toney or Jawann Taylor submarining his efforts....but he also doesn't have Kelce.
(12-18-2023, 09:07 AM)The Real Marty Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 04:38 AM)Holger Wrote: [ -> ]He has to learn to read the field and not just to execute the playbook otherwise he will never be elite and remain a Kirk Cousins.
He doesn't have time to read the field, and we don't have a running attack to keep the pass rush off of him. The opposing defense pins their ears back and rushes the passer and covers tight because they know he has to get the ball out quickly.
(12-18-2023, 04:53 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]How does one read the field when they have to get rid of the ball in less than 2.5 seconds or be sacked? You have to have time to read the field, you also have to have an OC who doesn't force you to be a one read QB.
It's not the OC. It's the O-line. Can't run the ball. Therefore, don't have time to read the field. The OC knows this, and has to call plays to get the ball out quickly.
We can't run the ball because we darft light in the pants. We want fancy technicians and not beefy bruisers. We want smart overthinkers and not angry beasts.
Because we are light in the pants, we gotta try to win runs with misdirection, spread, and other slow, horizontal approaches. Players, not plays. With players, the plays are easier. Without the players, the plays have to adjust and are doomed to failure.
GET THE BIG GUYS EARLY
say it with me now
(12-18-2023, 09:28 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 09:23 AM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes best WR would be our 4th or 5th string WR barring injuries to Kirk and Zay. Kelce is his only legitimate target on offense, and their RBs don't come close to ETN.
Can we stop with the Mahomes Vs. Lawrence stuff?
Lawrence just had his 50th career start last night. Mahomes just had his 94th, more than double if you factor in the post season games. You're also talking about two completely, yet, similar coaches in Reid and Pederson, with Reid being the guy that started Pederson's coaching path to begin with, and, had plenty of success in Philadelphia.
The only major differences in their careers? Mahomes had guys like Hill and a younger Kelce for awhile and their front office was swinging for the fences every off season to add an offensive tackle or guard to protect him.
I just think we need to worry about Lawrence being Lawrence. What can this team do to make him better? So far, he's playing more like Buffalo's Josh Allen early into his career. The turnovers need to be cleaned up. I don't think there's anyway anybody on here can argue that.
But, what's more evident? He's started helping this team win football games. That's more important to me. It hasn't been pretty at times. It's rare that it is in the NFL. I genuinely don't care. As long as they find ways to win. If they can just keep building around him? The rest will ultimately take care of itself.
My point isn't to compare the two as if Lawrence is Mahomes. My point is Mahomes is the best QB in the league and he's playing slightly better than Lawrence is. Mahomes has the 12th ranked oline, an RB averaging 4.3 yards a carry, a top 5 defense, top 3 HC. The only weakness that he has to overcome is poor WR play.
Lawrence has to overcome not only poor WR play but a oline that is 28th, a running back that is averaging 3.7 yards, a defense giving up 25+ points, and a garage OC. He has to do that with 2 leg injuries.
Mahomes is the best player in the league and has the ability to be the best QB to ever play and he's struggling with just one of the issues Lawrence is, so how in the world is Lawrence who isn't Mahomes supposed to overcome far more obstacles with zero help from his line, RB, and WRs.
(12-18-2023, 09:59 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 01:06 AM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]Would you currently give him a $150-200 million dollar contract? I would not. He has potential but also very inconsistent.
absolutely.
You can't see the throws he makes and say he's the cause of the inconsistency. Get him a band of big uglies with a mean streak in front of him and we'll see if things change.
We have no run game to keep Ds honest. We are the most horizontal offense I've ever watched.
Look at who else are getting those 150-200 deals. Do you think we'd be better with Geno, or Derek Carr? Maybe we should darft the next Bortles, Gabby, Zach or Trey.
Without a doubt, I feel better with him there than I do with any reset option.
(12-18-2023, 03:15 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes 3,700 Yds, 25TDs, 13 Ints
Lawrence 3,500 Yds, 22TDs, 10 Ints
Man that's a huge difference right there. You really think Mahomes has a worse situation then Lawrence does right now.
....well, Trevor doesn't have Kadarius Toney or Jawann Taylor submarining his efforts....but he also doesn't have Kelce.
You haven't seen Captain Zero and our Center play lately?
(12-18-2023, 09:54 AM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]Trevor had his worst game in a long time yesterday.
When did the supposed concussion occur?
I want to say a play or two before the sideline miss where he started shaking his arm out, he took a hit that included some contact with the side of his hat. He threw another into the dirst after that, so I have to imagine he was blurry at that point.
(12-18-2023, 09:59 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 01:06 AM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ]Would you currently give him a $150-200 million dollar contract? I would not. He has potential but also very inconsistent.
absolutely.
You can't see the throws he makes and say he's the cause of the inconsistency. Get him a band of big uglies with a mean streak in front of him and we'll see if things change.
We have no run game to keep Ds honest. We are the most horizontal offense I've ever watched.
Look at who else are getting those 150-200 deals. Do you think we'd be better with Geno, or Derek Carr? Maybe we should darft the next Bortles, Gabby, Zach or Trey.
Without a doubt, I feel better with him there than I do with any reset option.
(12-18-2023, 03:15 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]Mahomes 3,700 Yds, 25TDs, 13 Ints
Lawrence 3,500 Yds, 22TDs, 10 Ints
Man that's a huge difference right there. You really think Mahomes has a worse situation then Lawrence does right now.
....well, Trevor doesn't have Kadarius Toney or Jawann Taylor submarining his efforts....but he also doesn't have Kelce.
Ridley has dropped like 4 touchdowns and ran multiple incorrect routes that led to INTs. Even with Taylor the Chiefs oline is ranked 12th.