(12-18-2023, 12:00 AM)iHaunting Raven Wrote: [ -> ]Are there really people out there that still think this guy is a generational talent? Dude is not even the best QB in the division. TBF Stroud might be the one who is generational talent though.
Seems like I was right, Trevor is a Kirk Cousins at best, just a bit better in the playoffs... maybe.
(12-19-2023, 08:03 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]The hate continues.
https://twitter.com/NFLonCBS/status/1737...-7r0g&s=19
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Opinions of the biased fan vs reality on this one.
(12-19-2023, 08:03 PM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]The hate continues.
https://twitter.com/NFLonCBS/status/1737...-7r0g&s=19
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These are real stats. Of course, we could drill into any QB's stats and defend or attack them, but this is the tale of the tape.
That said, I dont want Daniel Jones on this team.
(12-19-2023, 07:27 PM)Shad Khans Mustache Wrote: [ -> ] (12-19-2023, 01:23 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Give Trevor 7 seconds like Lamar had. You think he can find an open man and gun the ball right to him?
Yes because Baltimore gave 7 seconds to Lamar it wasn't Lamar amazing awareness and capabilties that avoid and escape pressure
Thank you for making my point.
Trevor can't do the same because the guys in front of him are not affording him a figurative eternity. The line is causation. The hurried throws and horizontal patterns are the symptoms.
Giants had the 32nd ranked oline in the league when Jones was playing. Trevor had the 31st. I actually think Jones could be decent if they fixed his oline and gave him some WRs.
(12-19-2023, 07:37 PM)Shad Khans Mustache Wrote: [ -> ] (12-19-2023, 01:23 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Give Trevor 7 seconds like Lamar had. You think he can find an open man and gun the ball right to him?
Give Trevor a line he can rely on keep pressure off for more than a second and a half, watch what happens. You've seen him drop some beautiful passes. You know he is capable of every dang throw. The problem is that he doesn't have time to run progressions to find the open guy, he's running for his life, or he's already hobbled due to past failure of the line. You're equating a symptom (Trevor's mistakes) with cause (historical ineptitude in front of him).
Ben was a statue. Eli won more because the Giants D put tawmy on his rear, something nobody else managed to do. Luck was broken and retired well before he should have been because they did nothing to keep him upright. Rivers never made it to the big dance. Marino only once. Romo shrank in big games, not even going to entertain him in the discussion of some of the league's best QBs, not to mention one of Dallas' strengths have been their OL, they put resources into the line and that was a strength.
Grape jerb, nice try.
1.
Go look at his two SB runs and tell me how his oline was and how many times he was running for his life.
Ben was a "statue" is a lazy argument because he was a natural thrower of the football - but Ben was one of the best at avoiding sacks.
2.
Again, look at Elis oline in the SB runs. Get back at me.
The Gints and Eli, like the other Manning, won their trophies on the heels of the D, not the QB or line. The year they won the SB? A Whopping 9-7 record. He was certainly elevating the guys around him to greatness, right? Led the league in 4th quarter comebacks and game winning drives that year. Great stat, yes, but by no means were they steamrolling opponents due to Eli's supremacy.
Avoiding sacks and evading pressure is fine, but doing so requires at least some semblance of pocket to form, or lineman to engage pursuers. Look at the end of his career, when their line was absolute tripe. He wasn't able to be the same Ben because he had no time to evade pressure or allow receivers to get open. Trevor is also elusive and good at sidestepping pressure or getting the ball out...when he has more than a second and a half to react.
Again, you are seeing a symptom, not a cause.
(12-19-2023, 09:54 PM)jagshype Wrote: [ -> ] (12-19-2023, 08:47 PM)Shad Khans Mustache Wrote: [ -> ]I'm talking about their respectable olines.
respectable
I didn't realize they all wore glasses.
...wait, that's bespectacled.
Eli made two throws in both of those Superbowl wins over the Patriots though that most kids growing up wanting to play football could ever dream of. That escape from the pocket and prayer he threw up to Tyree was and still is my favorite pass I have ever seen in my lifetime.
That other one he hit in their 2nd loss along the sideline to Manningham was also impressive. It got them down the field when they needed it the most. He was the opposite of his older brother in big games. That's what I mostly remember about him.
Peyton would crush teams for sixteen weeks in a row in the regular season and them play like a lame duck throughout most of his play-off games. It was fun watching his big head explode sometimes on the sideline in those games.
Eli would play like a lame duck throughout the regular season, barely sneak into the play-off's, but, when he did? He was like a Trojan Horse with a stupid look on his face. Just out there slinging it without a care in the world and getting streaky with his passes like a tipsy pool shooter calling his pockets and banking them with ease.
It'll be interesting with Lawrence moving forward. Year four is coming up soon. The offensive line play needs to improve, no arguments from me there. He still has to figure out two things, regardless of what they do or do not do in the off season with the current offensive line:
1. Stop playing hero ball and mitigate the turnovers. When the ball is in your hands? And you put it on the ground? That falls on you. Sure, you might get blasted here and there and that's due to a free blitzer, and those are forgivable. But, when you're dancing around back there trying to do your best Vick, Cunningham, Jackson & Mahomes impression? Be careful.
2. Take the easy stuff. For the love of God. Just take what the defense gives you. We don't need a 50+ yard bomb on every drive to win these games? If it's there? Take it. If it's not? Get it out. Be checkdown Charlie sometimes. Nobody's going to care if you're winning games at the end of the day.
(12-20-2023, 11:14 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/SmokedByHyatt/status...67468?s=20
Daniel Jones is trash and has always been trash.
Giants got fooled just like the Jags were fooled by Bortles.
Have to factor in the fumbles as well in that turnover column for both of them to be fair, but, for me? He still passes the eyeball test, and, most importantly? He's helped this team win football games in spite of his mistakes.
That's all that should matter really. That should ultimately be the metric that counts. Does he help your team win? Does he help your team lose? If he's winning more than he's losing? And, his stats and the eye test show that out there?
We're good. This team has not seen to many beatdowns over the last two years as well. I think it was Detroit last year and San Francisco this year where we stood no chance in the contest overall, but, in every game, win or lose? It's been competitive in my opinion.
Yeah Trevor’s first year under the worst coach in NfL history really skewed his “overall” stats.
(12-20-2023, 11:14 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/SmokedByHyatt/status...67468?s=20
Daniel Jones is trash and has always been trash.
Giants got fooled just like the Jags were fooled by Bortles.
The cited stats are eerily similar, but I'm willing to bet if you asked all 32 GMs if you could have either of these 2QBs, 30+ are saying they'd take Lawrence and they aren't spending any time thinking about their answer.
(12-21-2023, 10:49 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/robertmays/status/17...31792?s=20
Thank you.
19:30 mark if you wanna listen.
It's funny, they referenced Matt Ryan and that's exactly what I said about him last year in the off season, as a worst case scenario. BUT, here's the catch.
He's a lot more athletic than Matt Ryan, he's got a better arm in my opinion than Matt Ryan, and, Matt Ryan played with a lot better protection, a more competent and consistent running game and with the likes of guys like Julio Jones, Roddy White and Tony Gonzalez.
Mind you, this is inside a dome at least nine times per year between the home games in Atlanta and the road game in New Orleans. I think his floor is Matt Ryan, but, his ceiling is a combination of John Elway / Peyton Manning / Brett Favre for me.
That's just how I see him. He'll have these years, where, he's a gunslinger and highly productive, doing the gritty running stuff that a guy like Elway and Favre did from time to time. He'll make the pre snap reads and make some money ball throws and high IQ stuff like Manning, etc.
It all starts with this front office though. He's a gold mine that you can get a ton of ore out of, provided, you get the right protection in front of him. Time is clearly on his side. Like they said, he's 24 years old. He can easily hit a light switch next year in the off season and for the next 6 - 12 years he's a monster.
(12-21-2023, 10:49 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/robertmays/status/17...31792?s=20
Thank you.
19:30 mark if you wanna listen.
You hear it every week from the analyst's. Trevor is not the problem and the guy is single handedly trying to overcome all the deficiencies of the O right now and when he can't do it all, he's the one that gets the blame! I know, thats life as a QB but I just find it staggering hearing the criticism, especially from Jags fans.
In a weird way I'd kind of want him to miss Sunday and people can see what it's like without him but I wouldn't want us to hurt ourselves like that.
Since we all seem to be slicing/dicing numbers to make our cases above, then here's another. According to their unis, Lawrence is twice as good as Jones. Case closed.
(12-21-2023, 11:20 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]It's funny, they referenced Matt Ryan and that's exactly what I said about him last year in the off season, as a worst case scenario. BUT, here's the catch.
He's a lot more athletic than Matt Ryan, he's got a better arm in my opinion than Matt Ryan, and, Matt Ryan played with a lot better protection, a more competent and consistent running game and with the likes of guys like Julio Jones, Roddy White and Tony Gonzalez.
Mind you, this is inside a dome at least nine times per year between the home games in Atlanta and the road game in New Orleans. I think his floor is Matt Ryan, but, his ceiling is a combination of John Elway / Peyton Manning / Brett Favre for me.
That's just how I see him. He'll have these years, where, he's a gunslinger and highly productive, doing the gritty running stuff that a guy like Elway and Favre did from time to time. He'll make the pre snap reads and make some money ball throws and high IQ stuff like Manning, etc.
It all starts with this front office though. He's a gold mine that you can get a ton of ore out of, provided, you get the right protection in front of him. Time is clearly on his side. Like they said, he's 24 years old. He can easily hit a light switch next year in the off season and for the next 6 - 12 years he's a monster.
I think they said in the podcast that the Jags:
Lead the league in % of negative rushing plays on first down (26% of the time I think)
Are top two in the league in number of yards lost due to dropped passes
Lead the league in # of pass plays in less than 2 seconds.
Pff now has our oline ranked 3rd worst in the nfl. Run game epa is 3rd worst in league. Worst team in the league on wr te screens which our coaches love to call (pattially dur to their preferencebut also due to oline limitations). Despite all that we are still 10th in the league in points scored. Our offense is only really effective when Lawrence is throwing the ball down the field. I get that people think he hasn't lived up to the generational QB tag but think folks need some perspective of how the team around him is performing.
(12-21-2023, 04:51 PM)PV=nRT Wrote: [ -> ] (12-21-2023, 11:20 AM)Caldrac Wrote: [ -> ]It's funny, they referenced Matt Ryan and that's exactly what I said about him last year in the off season, as a worst case scenario. BUT, here's the catch.
He's a lot more athletic than Matt Ryan, he's got a better arm in my opinion than Matt Ryan, and, Matt Ryan played with a lot better protection, a more competent and consistent running game and with the likes of guys like Julio Jones, Roddy White and Tony Gonzalez.
Mind you, this is inside a dome at least nine times per year between the home games in Atlanta and the road game in New Orleans. I think his floor is Matt Ryan, but, his ceiling is a combination of John Elway / Peyton Manning / Brett Favre for me.
That's just how I see him. He'll have these years, where, he's a gunslinger and highly productive, doing the gritty running stuff that a guy like Elway and Favre did from time to time. He'll make the pre snap reads and make some money ball throws and high IQ stuff like Manning, etc.
It all starts with this front office though. He's a gold mine that you can get a ton of ore out of, provided, you get the right protection in front of him. Time is clearly on his side. Like they said, he's 24 years old. He can easily hit a light switch next year in the off season and for the next 6 - 12 years he's a monster.
I think they said in the podcast that the Jags:
Lead the league in % of negative rushing plays on first down (26% of the time I think)
Are top two in the league in number of yards lost due to dropped passes
Lead the league in # of pass plays in less than 2 seconds.
(12-21-2023, 04:57 PM)rfc17 Wrote: [ -> ]Pff now has our oline ranked 3rd worst in the nfl. Run game epa is 3rd worst in league. Worst team in the league on wr te screens which our coaches love to call (pattially dur to their preferencebut also due to oline limitations). Despite all that we are still 10th in the league in points scored. Our offense is only really effective when Lawrence is throwing the ball down the field. I get that people think he hasn't lived up to the generational QB tag but think folks need some perspective of how the team around him is performing.
It's remarkable really. That's why I say he IS the generational talent he was billed out to be. He's out there on a weekly basis expected to make magic out of lunch meat. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken [BLEEP] man.
Even the guys he's been compared to, whether current, recent modern era or old era, those guys all had cohesion, consistency and investments made to improve their quality of life in the NFL.
People forget, but, sure, Peyton Manning was a menace in the NFL, however, he had Edgerin James throughout his career, and before that, Marshall Faulk for a little bit before he was shipped off to St. Louis.
Edgerin James was labeled the "Jaguar Killer' throughout his career. He averaged something crazy against us, something like 125 YPG when we played him. Then you start getting into the Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Marcus Pollard, etc.
Bill Polian built a good football team around him when they hit the lottery with that selection. Elway had Davis towards the end of his career. Shannon Sharpe at TE, guys like Rod Smith and McCaffrey on the outside and a vaunted defense. Favre had the same in guys like Sterling Sharpe and Chmura at TE. Among a number of other good receiving options and a stout defense (Reggie White) throughout his career.
It's a little unfair with the amount of [BLEEP] Lawrence has to catch locally and nationally. I think Khan will step in, demand a better line be produced and I think we'll see Lawrence become a consistent passer and overall threat to most defenses here in the very near future. Hopefully next year.