(10-23-2023, 10:02 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-23-2023, 09:29 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]He's definitely tough all around. If the O line could hold it together like they did against the Ain'ts, his confidence and percentages would rise.
Absolutely right again. So many plays are broken before they even develop and Lawrence has to adapt or scramble to try and make something work. That has a huge effect on his stats.
And Etienne is playing great right now. 3 games in a row with 2 TD's. If we are scoring TD's with the run game it doesn't mean that Lawrence can't.
Don't you mean it does mean that Lawrence can't? As he can't physically score a TD on a drive where we run it in. I feel like team TD would be a better stat, maybe Lawrence needs to start tap passing it forward on run plays to pad those stats.
We also saw with Lamar on Sunday, eventually all the drops stop and regress to the mean and you get a game where everything just works and suddenly he's in the MVP race. Not that it matters but for purely the purpose of getting credit I suspect Trevor will have a game like that at some point (probably not against the Steelers though!)
(10-24-2023, 07:33 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ] (10-23-2023, 11:12 PM)Eric1 Wrote: [ -> ]Yea Purdy is definitely "flat out better" than Lawrence is LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
I just don’t understand how people can evaluate QB play and come to the conclusion that Purdy is better than Trevor.
Purdy is a system QB.
The thing is, Purdy fits Shanny's system; if Lawrence was there Shanny would fit the system to him.
(10-25-2023, 08:06 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (10-24-2023, 07:33 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I just don’t understand how people can evaluate QB play and come to the conclusion that Purdy is better than Trevor.
Purdy is a system QB.
The thing is, Purdy fits Shanny's system; if Lawrence was there Shanny would fit the system to him.
Plays, not players? My internal Vic is screaming in horror
Purdy only has like 12 starts.
Anyway, remember when some clown wanted us to trade #1 overall pick (Trevor) for Deshaun Watson?
.gif "Laughing")
(10-25-2023, 08:31 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 08:06 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The thing is, Purdy fits Shanny's system; if Lawrence was there Shanny would fit the system to him.
Plays, not players? My internal Vic is screaming in horror
Yes, Shanny has a system that works for less talented QBs and that system doesn't change from Jimmy to Lance to Brock. He can plug those guys in and keep going. If he had a TLaw that system would change to benefit his talent.
(10-25-2023, 11:19 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 08:31 AM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ]Plays, not players? My internal Vic is screaming in horror
Yes, Shanny has a system that works for less talented QBs and that system doesn't change from Jimmy to Lance to Brock. He can plug those guys in and keep going. If he had a TLaw that system would change to benefit his talent.
Time and again we have seen really good coaches who have a system modify that system to the players they have. It is also called putting your players in a position to be successful. The coach has an inherit need to do this as if the players are not successful neither is the coach.
(10-25-2023, 11:47 AM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 11:19 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, Shanny has a system that works for less talented QBs and that system doesn't change from Jimmy to Lance to Brock. He can plug those guys in and keep going. If he had a TLaw that system would change to benefit his talent.
Time and again we have seen really good coaches who have a system modify that system to the players they have. It is also called putting your players in a position to be successful. The coach has an inherit need to do this as if the players are not successful neither is the coach.
Pederson has done that here. A lot of us made the mistake assuming he would bring over that twin TE receiving threat style of offense he had with the Eagles. It's been the opposite with better plays being made downfield with the WR group.
We've also seen Etienne exclusively featured as our RB instead of the RB by committee approach he also had with the Eagles. The only thing he's really missing here is better line play across both sides of the football. It's really impressive this team holds a 5 - 2 record with really lack luster line play.
(10-25-2023, 11:47 AM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 11:19 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, Shanny has a system that works for less talented QBs and that system doesn't change from Jimmy to Lance to Brock. He can plug those guys in and keep going. If he had a TLaw that system would change to benefit his talent.
Time and again we have seen really good coaches who have a system modify that system to the players they have. It is also called putting your players in a position to be successful. The coach has an inherit need to do this as if the players are not successful neither is the coach.
Yep.
Pederson does it and now we're seeing Mike Caldwell do it too.
The zone coverage schemes Caldwell is coaching and implementing (and when he calls them) have helped players like Lloyd and Cisco take the next step, and they've helped players like Herndon and Jenkins mask their coverage inabilities to turn in good showings. It's working better than any of us anticipated. Hopefully the pass rush is next in line to see development in a similar fashion, but the nature of that part of the game often comes down to individuals winning one on one with less room to scheme around it.
Pederson finds very creative ways to open up runs for ETN despite having one of the worst run blocking lines in the NFL.
He finds ways to get pass production from a QB who is playing hurt, basically never has a pocket to step into, and rarely gets 2 seconds to release the ball before pressure. He's also very smart about the way he uses Engram and even Agnew at times (even if the latter player has let him down a few times this year.) This stuff is specific to the individual players' strengths and the system has been tweaked to take advantage of those traits.
(10-25-2023, 06:18 AM)wassy04 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-23-2023, 10:02 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Absolutely right again. So many plays are broken before they even develop and Lawrence has to adapt or scramble to try and make something work. That has a huge effect on his stats.
And Etienne is playing great right now. 3 games in a row with 2 TD's. If we are scoring TD's with the run game it doesn't mean that Lawrence can't.
Don't you mean it does mean that Lawrence can't? As he can't physically score a TD on a drive where we run it in. I feel like team TD would be a better stat, maybe Lawrence needs to start tap passing it forward on run plays to pad those stats.
We also saw with Lamar on Sunday, eventually all the drops stop and regress to the mean and you get a game where everything just works and suddenly he's in the MVP race. Not that it matters but for purely the purpose of getting credit I suspect Trevor will have a game like that at some point (probably not against the Steelers though!)
Not at all. It would be ridiculous to force passes just to get Lawrence's stats up. If we're on the 2yd line and they can't stop Etienne then that's what you do. I don't see Lawrence's as a guy that has an ego or demands so his stats look good, he wants to win and if that's on him then he can do that, if its on the run game then he will do that or if its a mix of both then he'll do that.
It only seems to be fans who are obsessed with how many yards and TD's he throws and if he doesn't hit a certain number then he's not playing well.
The only stat Lawrence will care about is we are 5-2.
(10-25-2023, 01:14 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 06:18 AM)wassy04 Wrote: [ -> ]Don't you mean it does mean that Lawrence can't? As he can't physically score a TD on a drive where we run it in. I feel like team TD would be a better stat, maybe Lawrence needs to start tap passing it forward on run plays to pad those stats.
We also saw with Lamar on Sunday, eventually all the drops stop and regress to the mean and you get a game where everything just works and suddenly he's in the MVP race. Not that it matters but for purely the purpose of getting credit I suspect Trevor will have a game like that at some point (probably not against the Steelers though!)
Not at all. It would be ridiculous to force passes just to get Lawrence's stats up. If we're on the 2yd line and they can't stop Etienne then that's what you do. I don't see Lawrence's as a guy that has an ego or demands so his stats look good, he wants to win and if that's on him then he can do that, if its on the run game then he will do that or if its a mix of both then he'll do that.
It only seems to be fans who are obsessed with how many yards and TD's he throws and if he doesn't hit a certain number then he's not playing well.
The only stat Lawrence will care about is we are 5-2.
I think it says more about the coaching staff and who they trust in those situations. Trevor made some goofy mistakes last year when we were at the goal line, and now we've seen more rushing attempts and with ETN it's been working so why stop? I think overall passing TDs isn't an important stat. Ryan Tannehill had 33 td 7 ints a few years ago, looks good on paper but when you dig deeper you'd notice he had under 4,000 passing yards (which typically wouldn't happen when you have 33 td passes) Reason being, Derrick Henry was the guy who had that offense going up and down the field with over 2k yards, and the reason Tannehill had so many passing attempts once in striking range was because they had AJ Brown who is a DOMINANT goal line WR.
I'd be more worried about Trevor if he finished the season with 30 TDs and 3,000 yards than I would if he finishes with 25 TDs and 4000 yards.
(10-25-2023, 04:17 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 01:14 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Not at all. It would be ridiculous to force passes just to get Lawrence's stats up. If we're on the 2yd line and they can't stop Etienne then that's what you do. I don't see Lawrence's as a guy that has an ego or demands so his stats look good, he wants to win and if that's on him then he can do that, if its on the run game then he will do that or if its a mix of both then he'll do that.
It only seems to be fans who are obsessed with how many yards and TD's he throws and if he doesn't hit a certain number then he's not playing well.
The only stat Lawrence will care about is we are 5-2.
I think it says more about the coaching staff and who they trust in those situations. Trevor made some goofy mistakes last year when we were at the goal line, and now we've seen more rushing attempts and with ETN it's been working so why stop? I think overall passing TDs isn't an important stat. Ryan Tannehill had 33 td 7 ints a few years ago, looks good on paper but when you dig deeper you'd notice he had under 4,000 passing yards (which typically wouldn't happen when you have 33 td passes) Reason being, Derrick Henry was the guy who had that offense going up and down the field with over 2k yards, and the reason Tannehill had so many passing attempts once in striking range was because they had AJ Brown who is a DOMINANT goal line WR.
I'd be more worried about Trevor if he finished the season with 30 TDs and 3,000 yards than I would if he finishes with 25 TDs and 4000 yards.
If you can run the ball on a team you keep doing it until they prove they can stop you, whoever is at QB. I mean I still just use the eye test with Lawrence. When you watch the games you see this O starts with Lawrence's arm. He can make every type of throw and has made so many big time throws. When the game is on the line and you have a gotta have it play, your going with Lawrence.
The ultimate stat should be points per game for a qb.
If he leads a great drive and the RB punches it in - who cares. It’s still a great outcome.
That’s what I’m looking for. How many successful drives and points does our offense score? That should be the best metric for a qb.
(10-25-2023, 09:59 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]The ultimate stat should be points per game for a qb.
If he leads a great drive and the RB punches it in - who cares. It’s still a great outcome.
That’s what I’m looking for. How many successful drives and points does our offense score? That should be the best metric for a qb.
This, basically.
(10-25-2023, 09:43 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 04:17 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ]I think it says more about the coaching staff and who they trust in those situations. Trevor made some goofy mistakes last year when we were at the goal line, and now we've seen more rushing attempts and with ETN it's been working so why stop? I think overall passing TDs isn't an important stat. Ryan Tannehill had 33 td 7 ints a few years ago, looks good on paper but when you dig deeper you'd notice he had under 4,000 passing yards (which typically wouldn't happen when you have 33 td passes) Reason being, Derrick Henry was the guy who had that offense going up and down the field with over 2k yards, and the reason Tannehill had so many passing attempts once in striking range was because they had AJ Brown who is a DOMINANT goal line WR.
I'd be more worried about Trevor if he finished the season with 30 TDs and 3,000 yards than I would if he finishes with 25 TDs and 4000 yards.
If you can run the ball on a team you keep doing it until they prove they can stop you, whoever is at QB. I mean I still just use the eye test with Lawrence. When you watch the games you see this O starts with Lawrence's arm. He can make every type of throw and has made so many big time throws. When the game is on the line and you have a gotta have it play, your going with Lawrence.
I was just using the Tannehill example to make a point that high passing TD numbers don't nessacarily mean good QB.
(10-25-2023, 04:17 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 01:14 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Not at all. It would be ridiculous to force passes just to get Lawrence's stats up. If we're on the 2yd line and they can't stop Etienne then that's what you do. I don't see Lawrence's as a guy that has an ego or demands so his stats look good, he wants to win and if that's on him then he can do that, if its on the run game then he will do that or if its a mix of both then he'll do that.
It only seems to be fans who are obsessed with how many yards and TD's he throws and if he doesn't hit a certain number then he's not playing well.
The only stat Lawrence will care about is we are 5-2.
I think it says more about the coaching staff and who they trust in those situations. Trevor made some goofy mistakes last year when we were at the goal line, and now we've seen more rushing attempts and with ETN it's been working so why stop? I think overall passing TDs isn't an important stat. Ryan Tannehill had 33 td 7 ints a few years ago, looks good on paper but when you dig deeper you'd notice he had under 4,000 passing yards (which typically wouldn't happen when you have 33 td passes) Reason being, Derrick Henry was the guy who had that offense going up and down the field with over 2k yards, and the reason Tannehill had so many passing attempts once in striking range was because they had AJ Brown who is a DOMINANT goal line WR.
I'd be more worried about Trevor if he finished the season with 30 TDs and 3,000 yards than I would if he finishes with 25 TDs and 4000 yards.
Last year's picks factor absolutely zero into their decision to throw or not throw on short yardage and goal to go plays this season, and I am willing to wager my own body parts on that statement.
But please, keep revisiting the same tired argument to prove you're not worth paying attention to. Thanks for the reminder.
(10-25-2023, 09:59 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]The ultimate stat should be points per game for a qb.
If he leads a great drive and the RB punches it in - who cares. It’s still a great outcome.
That’s what I’m looking for. How many successful drives and points does our offense score? That should be the best metric for a qb.
....what if the RB fumbles on the 1? Why does that become a detriment to the QB?
The ultimate stat is your darn eyes. There's no singular stat that is going to tell the story of a player or a game. You're going to have to look at the whole picture, a group of stats to get a realistic understanding of how the player, team, game or season fared.
(10-25-2023, 11:39 PM)ChrisJagBoy Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 09:59 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]The ultimate stat should be points per game for a qb.
If he leads a great drive and the RB punches it in - who cares. It’s still a great outcome.
That’s what I’m looking for. How many successful drives and points does our offense score? That should be the best metric for a qb.
This, basically.
(10-25-2023, 09:43 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]If you can run the ball on a team you keep doing it until they prove they can stop you, whoever is at QB. I mean I still just use the eye test with Lawrence. When you watch the games you see this O starts with Lawrence's arm. He can make every type of throw and has made so many big time throws. When the game is on the line and you have a gotta have it play, your going with Lawrence.
I was just using the Tannehill example to make a point that high passing TD numbers don't nessacarily mean good QB.
On the same token, craptons of yards might mean your QB is adept at amassing garbage time stats against prevent D. An stat won't tell the whole story no matter how hard you try.
(10-25-2023, 08:06 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ] (10-24-2023, 07:33 AM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]I just don’t understand how people can evaluate QB play and come to the conclusion that Purdy is better than Trevor.
Purdy is a system QB.
The thing is, Purdy fits Shanny's system; if Lawrence was there Shanny would fit the system to him.
I mean, it's not for everyone otherwise every QB through there would be successful(See - Trey Lance) I think Shan is a top 5 NFL HC, so he would def cater to Trevor and he would find success there. It's crazy how so many Jags fans lack self awareness. They will drag me for harping on a less than stellar statistical season from Trevor, but Purdy has 2 bad games - 1 in which you could almost certainly pin both interceptions on playing through a concussion, and now he's some dumpster QB. Purdy will be fine, he is a good QB just like Trevor. I wouldn't pin either as great or elite. I would rank Purdy over Trevor right now though, he doesn't have the gaudy numbers and the pass offense has been - meh, if ETN wasn't having a career year and the defense wasn't 1st in takeaways and you had to rely on TL's body of work to win this year, we'd have 1 win. That's a fact. I think a similar situation occurs in SF with Purdy, hence why I think both QBs are good in the right situations, but you wouldn't ask either to carry your team because we've seen both flounder in that scenario more times than not. Trevor, to his credit, at least has the playoff game where he carried that team to a W.
edits
(10-25-2023, 09:59 PM)SuperJville Wrote: [ -> ]The ultimate stat should be points per game for a qb.
If he leads a great drive and the RB punches it in - who cares. It’s still a great outcome.
That’s what I’m looking for. How many successful drives and points does our offense score? That should be the best metric for a qb.
Or you could attempt to analyze football players by watching them play football instead of trying to find the perfect stat to mislead you less than another one.
My primary issue with the little throng of Lawrence detractors floating about is that most of them fail to see the rare abilities he possesses that make him better than a number of other franchise-level QBs.
Of course we aren't seeing those gifts fully realized due to :
- no pocket / bad protection
- Lawrence's own youth and ongoing development / inconsistency
But his talent is there to be seen if you look w/o bias.
He has put stuff on tape that you only see from the elite guys - he just isn't doing it every week yet.
It will happen eventually and all of this petty gnashing of teeth about his ranking or categorical classification will look stupid.
(10-26-2023, 10:04 AM)JagsFanSince95 Wrote: [ -> ] (10-25-2023, 08:06 AM)flsprtsgod Wrote: [ -> ]The thing is, Purdy fits Shanny's system; if Lawrence was there Shanny would fit the system to him.
I mean, it's not for everyone otherwise every QB through there would be successful(See - Trey Lance) I think Shan is a top 5 NFL HC, so he would def cater to Trevor and he would find success there. It's crazy how so many Jags fans lack self awareness. They will drag me for harping on a less than stellar statistical season from Trevor, but Purdy has 2 bad games - 1 in which you could almost certainly pin both interceptions on playing through a concussion, and now he's some dumpster QB. Purdy will be fine, he is a good QB just like Trevor. I wouldn't pin either as great or elite. I would rank Purdy over Trevor right now though, he doesn't have the gaudy numbers and the pass offense has been - meh, if ETN wasn't having a career year and the defense wasn't 1st in takeaways and you had to rely on TL's body of work to win this year, we'd have 1 win. That's a fact. I think a similar situation occurs in SF with Purdy, hence why I think both QBs are good in the right situations, but you wouldn't ask either to carry your team because we've seen both flounder in that scenario more times than not. Trevor, to his credit, at least has the playoff game where he carried that team to a W.
edits
What is with this narrative that Trevor can't carry a team? Did you miss the Ravens game last year? Or the Cowboys? or the 1st Titans game? Or the Chargers games (granted he had a horrible 1st half but he certainly carried them in the 2nd half)?
You're just making stuff up as you go in order to be a contrarian. Purdy isn't even in the same stratosphere as Trevor and never will be.
Oh and the Vegas markets have the 49ers projected total at 23.5 with Darnold and it was 24.5 with Purdy.... What do you think would happen if Trevor missed a game? Think it would be a 1 point difference?