(12-18-2023, 03:06 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 01:57 PM)NewJagsCity Wrote: [ -> ]This year, he is who the stats say he is: slightly above middle of the pack.
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2023-...op-10/amp/
Agreed and that's still better than our previous quarterbacks(for a number of years). It's just nonsense to continue claiming he's elite. He's not until he plays like that. At that time we'll compare him to Mahomes. That comes with being elite. If we want to compare him to Baker instead then we admit he's mid.
It's absolutely clear that factors outside of his control are holding him back but Trevor also needs to do a much better job with some things. Not least holding on to the ball.
I agree with that.
Bottom line: You put Mahomes on this current roster we are a 12 win team right now. Some continue to blame everyone but Trevor. Yes the team around him has issues but Trevor also has issues.
(12-18-2023, 03:08 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:06 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed and that's still better than our previous quarterbacks(for a number of years). It's just nonsense to continue claiming he's elite. He's not until he plays like that. At that time we'll compare him to Mahomes. That comes with being elite. If we want to compare him to Baker instead then we admit he's mid.
It's absolutely clear that factors outside of his control are holding him back but Trevor also needs to do a much better job with some things. Not least holding on to the ball.
I agree with that.
Bottom line: You put Mahomes on this current roster we are a 12 win team right now. Some continue to blame everyone but Trevor. Yes the team around him has issues but Trevor also has issues.
If you remove Lawrence and Mahomes which team is better overall?
(12-18-2023, 02:21 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Love it.
People jumped ship on Lawrence last year and people are doing it again.
I’ll take all the Trevor stock.
He’s not perfect but it’s year 3. YEAR 3. He has taken this team from rock bottom to a potential playoff team in back to back years.
Yep. I remember asking at the start of the year was anyone not on the Lawrence train. To his credit JagsFanSince95 did actually say he had concerns.
But now I'm done. This rushing to post on here about how bad he is and everything wrong with him and then how they never appear during a good game is just sad.
Your either with Lawrence or not. He's our QB.
(12-18-2023, 03:13 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:08 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ] I agree with that.
Bottom line: You put Mahomes on this current roster we are a 12 win team right now. Some continue to blame everyone but Trevor. Yes the team around him has issues but Trevor also has issues.
If you remove Lawrence and Mahomes what team is better overall?
Jaguars. They upgraded by signing Jawaan Taylor and their receiver corps is terrible. They have Kelce and Chris Jones but that's about it.
(12-18-2023, 03:13 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:08 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ] I agree with that.
Bottom line: You put Mahomes on this current roster we are a 12 win team right now. Some continue to blame everyone but Trevor. Yes the team around him has issues but Trevor also has issues.
If you remove Lawrence and Mahomes which team is better overall?
Jaguars have a better overall receiving group.
(12-18-2023, 03:08 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:06 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed and that's still better than our previous quarterbacks(for a number of years). It's just nonsense to continue claiming he's elite. He's not until he plays like that. At that time we'll compare him to Mahomes. That comes with being elite. If we want to compare him to Baker instead then we admit he's mid.
It's absolutely clear that factors outside of his control are holding him back but Trevor also needs to do a much better job with some things. Not least holding on to the ball.
I agree with that.
Bottom line: You put Mahomes on this current roster we are a 12 win team right now. Some continue to blame everyone but Trevor. Yes the team around him has issues but Trevor also has issues.
Can we stop with the "put Mahomes on this team" stuff? If you put Mahomes on ANY team they'll win 10-12 games.
Do you think Allen, Hurts, Dak, Tua, Herbert, hell even Purdy would win 12 games with this OL/team?
(12-18-2023, 03:21 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:08 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ] I agree with that.
Bottom line: You put Mahomes on this current roster we are a 12 win team right now. Some continue to blame everyone but Trevor. Yes the team around him has issues but Trevor also has issues.
Can we stop with the "put Mahomes on this team" stuff? If you put Mahomes on ANY team they'll win 10-12 games.
Do you think Allen, Hurts, Dak, Tua, Herbert, hell even Purdy would win 12 games with this OL/team?
You know Trevor is in the concussion protocol. If he doesn't play we'll get a demonstration exactly how good Trevor is by seeing CJ Beathard being behind the same line with the same receivers.
I'm not sure anyone wants it but if it happens then I'm sure it will clarify a few things.
(12-18-2023, 03:18 PM)CanDoBetter Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:13 PM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]If you remove Lawrence and Mahomes what team is better overall?
Jaguars. They upgraded by signing Jawaan Taylor and their receiver corps is terrible. They have Kelce and Chris Jones but that's about it.
Ok so thank you for proving you only care about being right.
KC has the 12th ranked Oline, their running back averages 4.3 yards a carry, their defense is top 5. The fact that you say they only have chris jones on defense proves your ignorance about KC that or you're purposely being misleading.
(12-18-2023, 03:13 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 02:21 PM)Cleatwood Wrote: [ -> ]Love it.
People jumped ship on Lawrence last year and people are doing it again.
I’ll take all the Trevor stock.
He’s not perfect but it’s year 3. YEAR 3. He has taken this team from rock bottom to a potential playoff team in back to back years.
Yep. I remember asking at the start of the year was anyone not on the Lawrence train. To his credit JagsFanSince95 did actually say he had concerns.
But now I'm done. This rushing to post on here about how bad he is and everything wrong with him and then how they never appear during a good game is just sad.
Your either with Lawrence or not. He's our QB.
That is a narrow way of thinking. You look at the entire work and then judge. Not just blindly say I follow him or not.
He has struggled as of late. He continues to have areas of concerns with elements of his game. The turnovers especially are killing us. Overall the numbers do not lie. He has been just average at best this year. Yes there are a number of factors but that is what it is. Some will say but X receiver dropped X td but he also over threw, under thrown, didn't see open receivers, etc that there is no stats for. He has world class talent that has not translated to world class results on the field. Many want to blame everyone but him. His performance has also been very bi-polar all year so it makes sense why the reactions are also so extreme. As many amazing throws we see on the highlights he also misses many easy ones. Every week it seems like an announcer is saying how he is missing open receivers or making the game too difficult by not taking the easy stuff. Right now you really can't say if he is a homerun or a bust.
(12-18-2023, 03:21 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:08 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ] I agree with that.
Bottom line: You put Mahomes on this current roster we are a 12 win team right now. Some continue to blame everyone but Trevor. Yes the team around him has issues but Trevor also has issues.
Can we stop with the "put Mahomes on this team" stuff? If you put Mahomes on ANY team they'll win 10-12 games.
Do you think Allen, Hurts, Dak, Tua, Herbert, hell even Purdy would win 12 games with this OL/team?
We have a talented roster. Oline rankings are probably the hardest to evaulate in football
(12-18-2023, 03:28 PM)Shad Khans Mustache Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:21 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ]Can we stop with the "put Mahomes on this team" stuff? If you put Mahomes on ANY team they'll win 10-12 games.
Do you think Allen, Hurts, Dak, Tua, Herbert, hell even Purdy would win 12 games with this OL/team?
We have a talented roster. Oline rankings are probably the hardest to evaulate in football
You have no problem insulting fan after fan after fan because they don't share your negative take on certain players, but ranking NFL offensive lines is too hard for you.
Interesting tack you are steering here.
Would you rank the Jags OL in the lowest 20% of the league in both run blocking and pass protection?
(12-18-2023, 03:26 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:13 PM)JagFan81 Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. I remember asking at the start of the year was anyone not on the Lawrence train. To his credit JagsFanSince95 did actually say he had concerns.
But now I'm done. This rushing to post on here about how bad he is and everything wrong with him and then how they never appear during a good game is just sad.
Your either with Lawrence or not. He's our QB.
That is a narrow way of thinking. You look at the entire work and then judge. Not just blindly say I follow him or not.
He has struggled as of late. He continues to have areas of concerns with elements of his game. The turnovers especially are killing us. Overall the numbers do not lie. He has been just average at best this year. Yes there are a number of factors but that is what it is. Some will say but X receiver dropped X td but he also over threw, under thrown, didn't see open receivers, etc that there is no stats for. He has world class talent that has not translated to world class results on the field. Many want to blame everyone but him. His performance has also been very bi-polar all year so it makes sense why the reactions are also so extreme. As many amazing throws we see on the highlights he also misses many easy ones. Every week it seems like an announcer is saying how he is missing open receivers or making the game too difficult by not taking the easy stuff. Right now you really can't say if he is a homerun or a bust.
I'm not saying you can only say positive things about Lawrence, you can call out mistakes or things he does wrong. My issue is how one bad play can be blown out of all proportion yet the good plays are just ignored or the credit given elsewhere. There are plenty of posters who only appear to bash Trevor and its getting boring to be honest.
I'm all for a sensible debate with logical arguments for and against. What I'm sick of reading is people trying to put everything wrong with the team all on him. I don't expect him to play well every week and I know he'll cost us games but he'll also win us a damn lot of games. I support him through good and bad times.
(12-18-2023, 03:21 PM)imtheblkranger Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 03:08 PM)OG-JAGFAN Wrote: [ -> ] I agree with that.
Bottom line: You put Mahomes on this current roster we are a 12 win team right now. Some continue to blame everyone but Trevor. Yes the team around him has issues but Trevor also has issues.
Can we stop with the "put Mahomes on this team" stuff? If you put Mahomes on ANY team they'll win 10-12 games.
Do you think Allen, Hurts, Dak, Tua, Herbert, hell even Purdy would win 12 games with this OL/team?
When you look at the stats of the two Mahomes is barely out playing Lawrence this year. No does that mean they are equal no.
But let me put it like this if the best stunt driver in the world can't perform a stunt on one bad tire then how can you expect the 5th, 10th, and so on to perform the stunt on 2 bad tires and no breaks.
Some are trying to twist this as me saying Lawrence is elite but all I'm saying is you can't say Lawrence isn't able to be elite or is just an average QB going forward because he's not able to overcome what is going on with this team. Not when you have a QB you know is elite and playing at the same ors lightly above the level Lawrence is due to the situation around him.
I'd love for Lawrence to be "elite" one day.
(even though that means 16 different things to 17 given people)
But I'd totally just settle for the whole offense getting through 60 minutes of football without shooting themselves in the foot with dumb mistakes. That'd be a great start.
Then maybe we could work on doing that 2 weeks in a row.
Baby steps and that.
(12-18-2023, 10:15 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ][quote pid="1594761" dateline="1702907988"]
....well, Trevor doesn't have Kadarius Toney or Jawann Taylor submarining his efforts....but he also doesn't have Kelce.
Ridley has dropped like 4 touchdowns and ran multiple incorrect routes that led to INTs. Even with Taylor the Chiefs oline is ranked 12th.
[/quote]
I get that, my post wasn't necessarily a criticism of your statement, more of "they're just as poor off as we are right now". In the past it seemed like everything Mahomes touched turned to gold. They are crashing down to reality. Taylor is the most penalized lineman in the league, IIRC. They spent a fortune on him, too, so they are stuck with him or at least with his cap hit.
Engram is no slouch, but if we had a guy like Kelce who has that #1 receiver mentality, Trevor would be much better off.
(12-18-2023, 11:12 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 11:08 AM)Shad Khans Mustache Wrote: [ -> ]They do but they are placed on a diff catg of stats.
Thats why when you look up stats on any QB rushing TDs arent included with passing TDs. Not sure why but it's always been like that.
Ok well by that logic receiving stats don't count for RBs. If someone has to remove a stat from a player in order to prove they are right they have already lost.
no dog in the fight, but by chance did you add rush yards to the yardage in your post? If we are factoring total offensive production, I would combine yards and TD for throw and run. If we are just comparing passing stats, then just throw yards and scores.
At least that would be my train of thought.
(12-18-2023, 03:56 PM)NYC4jags Wrote: [ -> ]I'd love for Lawrence to be "elite" one day.
(even though that means 16 different things to 17 given people)
But I'd totally just settle for the whole offense getting through 60 minutes of football without shooting themselves in the foot with dumb mistakes. That'd be a great start.
Then maybe we could work on doing that 2 weeks in a row.
Baby steps and that.
Wins, play-off appearances > individual stats. Plenty of elite players in this league doing great things on gamedays only to fall short.
Fantasy football has worried this sport for a lot of fans. Just give me a well rounded football team that can show up and give us more complete games.
If you're a good team? You have to show it over these next three weeks. No excuses. Nobody wants to hear about the injuries this late into the season. Everybody has them.
You managed eight wins, you need to scrape up at least two more to have a shot at the play-off's, maybe the AFC South title again for the second year in a row.
(12-18-2023, 11:24 AM)iHaunting Raven Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 11:21 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]Which QB would play better than Lawrence in this situation?
NO ONE. Trevor is the best QB of all time, HoF!!! look at the numbers! 4 rushing TDs, he is the GOAT!!!!
You could have just said "I got nothin"
(12-18-2023, 11:27 AM)Newton Wrote: [ -> ]I think the upside is you have the chance to lock him up on a bit of a discount.
....but unless we start improving the line, would you sign on the dotted line if you were him?
(12-18-2023, 04:17 PM)Mikey Wrote: [ -> ] (12-18-2023, 10:15 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ][quote pid="1594761" dateline="1702907988"]
....well, Trevor doesn't have Kadarius Toney or Jawann Taylor submarining his efforts....but he also doesn't have Kelce.
Ridley has dropped like 4 touchdowns and ran multiple incorrect routes that led to INTs. Even with Taylor the Chiefs oline is ranked 12th.
I get that, my post wasn't necessarily a criticism of your statement, more of "they're just as poor off as we are right now". In the past it seemed like everything Mahomes touched turned to gold. They are crashing down to reality. Taylor is the most penalized lineman in the league, IIRC. They spent a fortune on him, too, so they are stuck with him or at least with his cap hit.
Engram is no slouch, but if we had a guy like Kelce who has that #1 receiver mentality, Trevor would be much better off.
(12-18-2023, 11:12 AM)Protozoa Wrote: [ -> ]Ok well by that logic receiving stats don't count for RBs. If someone has to remove a stat from a player in order to prove they are right they have already lost.
no dog in the fight, but by chance did you add rush yards to the yardage in your post? If we are factoring total offensive production, I would combine yards and TD for throw and run. If we are just comparing passing stats, then just throw yards and scores.
At least that would be my train of thought.
[/quote]
I didn't include rush yards for Lawrence or Mahomes as it was a wash.