(03-02-2025, 02:22 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 12:58 AM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]LOL ... What a pigeon you are. But in a sense of fairness read this. You actually need to understand how the Russian side feels about the Warsaw pact countries. Without that you will be clueless as you are now. This is a couple articles on the subject and pretty correct. You can find many more on you own time.
https://warontherocks.com/2016/07/promis...t-matters/
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/...ders-early
I understand how Russia feels about the Warsaw pact countries very well. And I also don't give a rat's [BLEEP] about it and as the red-blooded American you claim to be, you shouldn't either.
The countries of the former Warsaw pact are democracies that are free to choose closer relations with Russia if they wish. And they do not wish to do so at this time. The next generation of Russians can learn a lesson and learn to play nice, and maybe they will have better luck with those countries.
First, we have one vote to risk nuclear war with Russia, which happens to be led by a maniacal dictator. All to save the guy who decided to piss him off. (Mr. Z)
Second, I am an American born and raised. You have no right to tell me how to think in order to be one. This rhetoric as was popular the last few years in silencing people with opposing views ( a Nazi tactic) but are now being ignored. Unless you are just trying to get a rise from me. I now have to question your motives.
(03-02-2025, 02:38 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 02:22 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I understand how Russia feels about the Warsaw pact countries very well. And I also don't give a rat's [BLEEP] about it and as the red-blooded American you claim to be, you shouldn't either.
The countries of the former Warsaw pact are democracies that are free to choose closer relations with Russia if they wish. And they do not wish to do so at this time. The next generation of Russians can learn a lesson and learn to play nice, and maybe they will have better luck with those countries.
First, we have one vote to risk nuclear war with Russia, which happens to be led by a maniacal dictator. All to save the guy who decided to piss him off. (Mr. Z)
Second, I am an American born and raised. You have no right to tell me how to think in order to be one. This rhetoric as was popular the last few years in silencing people with opposing views ( a Nazi tactic) but are now being ignored. Unless you are just trying to get a rise from me. I now have to question your motives.
I'm starting to suspect English is your second language, because all I said was "should". I am not demanding you think a certain way. That would be unamerican of me. I am telling you that you should think a certain way, and yes you are free to ignore my opinion on that.
But your first claim is more troubling than your second. You claim that Mr. Z did something to piss Putin off. What was it? Ukraine has been trying to join NATO ever since they got independence, so it's not that.
(03-02-2025, 02:40 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 02:38 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]First, we have one vote to risk nuclear war with Russia, which happens to be led by a maniacal dictator. All to save the guy who decided to piss him off. (Mr. Z)
Second, I am an American born and raised. You have no right to tell me how to think in order to be one. This rhetoric as was popular the last few years in silencing people with opposing views ( a Nazi tactic) but are now being ignored. Unless you are just trying to get a rise from me. I now have to question your motives.
I'm starting to suspect English is your second language, because all I said was "should". I am not demanding you think a certain way. That would be unamerican of me. I am telling you that you should think a certain way, and yes you are free to ignore my opinion on that.
But your first claim is more troubling than your second. You claim that Mr. Z did something to piss Putin off. What was it? Ukraine has been trying to join NATO ever since they got independence, so it's not that.
English is my native language but I do know a few others. (just an FYI) Shoulda, woulda, coulda, I know what you meant so own up to it or just be a pigeon.
I have detailed what the Ukraine leadership has done in the past to piss Russia off. I cannot make you understand it, nor will I try as it has proved to be a waste of time in the past. I would think losing the Crimean Peninsula as a warning the first time would have let them know what would happen if they continued. Now they have lost a bunch more land and I can't see Putin freely giving it back and the US cannot force them to. If they continue they will lose their entire country. Is this fair? Absolutely not, this is where we are unless we risk nuclear war with Russia. Something Trump will not do.
(03-02-2025, 02:58 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 02:40 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I'm starting to suspect English is your second language, because all I said was "should". I am not demanding you think a certain way. That would be unamerican of me. I am telling you that you should think a certain way, and yes you are free to ignore my opinion on that.
But your first claim is more troubling than your second. You claim that Mr. Z did something to piss Putin off. What was it? Ukraine has been trying to join NATO ever since they got independence, so it's not that.
English is my native language but I do know a few others. (just an FYI) Shoulda, woulda, coulda, I know what you meant so own up to it or just be a pigeon.
I have detailed what the Ukraine leadership has done in the past to piss Russia off. I cannot make you understand it, nor will I try as it has proved to be a waste of time in the past. I would think losing the Crimean Peninsula as a warning the first time would have let them know what would happen if they continued. Now they have lost a bunch more land and I can't see Putin freely giving it back and the US cannot force them to. If they continue they will lose their entire country. Is this fair? Absolutely not, this is where we are unless we risk nuclear war with Russia. Something Trump will not do.
They lost the Crimean Peninsula in 2014. Way before Mr. Z's time. The Ukrainian people saw the consequences of voting for strong resistance against Russia, and they voted for more of the same.
(03-02-2025, 03:31 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 02:58 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]English is my native language but I do know a few others. (just an FYI) Shoulda, woulda, coulda, I know what you meant so own up to it or just be a pigeon.
I have detailed what the Ukraine leadership has done in the past to piss Russia off. I cannot make you understand it, nor will I try as it has proved to be a waste of time in the past. I would think losing the Crimean Peninsula as a warning the first time would have let them know what would happen if they continued. Now they have lost a bunch more land and I can't see Putin freely giving it back and the US cannot force them to. If they continue they will lose their entire country. Is this fair? Absolutely not, this is where we are unless we risk nuclear war with Russia. Something Trump will not do.
They lost the Crimean Peninsula in 2014. Way before Mr. Z's time. The Ukrainian people saw the consequences of voting for strong resistance against Russia, and they voted for more of the same.
Yep history repeating itself happens all the time. Trump did his best to get them out of this with minimal damage and a modicum of security.
Note to Mr. Z ... if you agree to a deal with Putin, Xi or Trump go to their office then and embarrass them trying to renegotiate it on National TV there will be consequences. They will not be good ones either, however the least lethal will be Trump.
(03-02-2025, 02:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 10:22 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]If the mineral rights deal is a de facto security deal, and is advertised as such to the world, the Russians wouldn't dare attack.
Thems the bonuses when you're the most powerful country on the planet. We can throw our weight around. I know that's hard to believe after four years of meat puppet and that trainwreck administration which loudly proclaimed the U.S. are pushovers and presented us as the world's doormat, but it's not like that now.
However, I will concede your point if another impotent Democrat gains office. In that case, Ukraine would be the least of our worries and it would be left to Europe to do its duty. But that's doubtful considering the puling, supine ideology they've embraced.
That's exactly the narrative Putin wants you to believe. We will never know exactly why Putin chose to invade the day and the month that he did. But even though you say it's because Biden's a pushover, we know that Biden opened up our stores of weapons to the Ukrainians, and Russian casualties so far are about 2:1 of Ukrainian casualties. So Russia is definitely not happy about Biden's response.
We also know that the Russian media openly hoped for Trump to win in 2016, 2020, and 2024. If one of our parties is tough on Russia, and the other is a doormat, wouldn't Russia hope for the doormat party to win? Doesn't it seem like the doormat is actually Trump, then?
Don't you see the game? Putin is trying to control our political process. And you've bought in 100%. Vote for the right guy, Putin attacks, vote in the wrong guy, Putin doesn't attack. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
And there it is, the old leftist rhetoric that Putin is steering the American political process. It's become the automatic opt out when forced to own up to weak Democrat policies and their consequences.
Wait, I want to play too: 'Sorry, Mike, but your assertion appears to be a classic Russian disinformation campaign.' Am I doing it right?
Good gawd, Putin is (conveniently) around every corner with you folks.
(03-02-2025, 03:31 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 02:58 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]English is my native language but I do know a few others. (just an FYI) Shoulda, woulda, coulda, I know what you meant so own up to it or just be a pigeon.
I have detailed what the Ukraine leadership has done in the past to piss Russia off. I cannot make you understand it, nor will I try as it has proved to be a waste of time in the past. I would think losing the Crimean Peninsula as a warning the first time would have let them know what would happen if they continued. Now they have lost a bunch more land and I can't see Putin freely giving it back and the US cannot force them to. If they continue they will lose their entire country. Is this fair? Absolutely not, this is where we are unless we risk nuclear war with Russia. Something Trump will not do.
They lost the Crimean Peninsula in 2014. Way before Mr. Z's time. The Ukrainian people saw the consequences of voting for strong resistance against Russia, and they voted for more of the same.
MAGAs wants to have sympthy for Russians.... This is hilarious.
From the same country that spent hundreds of years dominating their neighbors economically and militarily. It's a little hard to have sympathy for them. Dont you not think, or are you historicially challenged?
(03-02-2025, 05:07 PM)TDOSS Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 03:31 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]They lost the Crimean Peninsula in 2014. Way before Mr. Z's time. The Ukrainian people saw the consequences of voting for strong resistance against Russia, and they voted for more of the same.
MAGAs wants to have sympthy for Russians.... This is hilarious.
From the same country that spent hundreds of years dominating their neighbors economically and militarily. It's a little hard to have sympathy for them. Dont you not think, or are you historicially challenged?
Another lie from this pathetic subhuman.. [BLEEP] Russia too, just the same as [BLEEP] Ukraine and [BLEEP] liberals as well.. You're all trash..
(03-02-2025, 12:49 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (03-01-2025, 07:21 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]You think Russia is suddenly going to start honoring cease fire agreements?
Do you think Russia would attack a country we had a security deal with?
Uh, what?
Didn't Putin's Russia already do this?
The Budapest Memorandum outlined assurances to Ukraine, detailed in the document deposited with the United Nations (UN Doc. A/49/765)
1. Respect for Sovereignty and Borders: The signatories agreed to respect Ukraine’s independence, sovereignty, and existing borders, consistent with the Helsinki Final Act of 1975.
2. No Use of Force: They pledged to refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territorial integrity or political independence.
3. No Economic Coercion: They committed to avoid economic pressure to subvert Ukraine’s sovereignty.
4. Security Assurances: If Ukraine faced aggression or threats involving nuclear weapons, the signatories promised to seek immediate UN Security Council action to provide assistance.
5. Non-Use of Nuclear Weapons: Russia, the U.S., and the UK affirmed they would not use nuclear weapons against Ukraine (except in self-defense if attacked by Ukraine in alliance with a nuclear power).
6. Consultation Clause: The parties agreed to consult if issues arose concerning these commitments.
(03-02-2025, 04:49 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 02:34 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]That's exactly the narrative Putin wants you to believe. We will never know exactly why Putin chose to invade the day and the month that he did. But even though you say it's because Biden's a pushover, we know that Biden opened up our stores of weapons to the Ukrainians, and Russian casualties so far are about 2:1 of Ukrainian casualties. So Russia is definitely not happy about Biden's response.
We also know that the Russian media openly hoped for Trump to win in 2016, 2020, and 2024. If one of our parties is tough on Russia, and the other is a doormat, wouldn't Russia hope for the doormat party to win? Doesn't it seem like the doormat is actually Trump, then?
Don't you see the game? Putin is trying to control our political process. And you've bought in 100%. Vote for the right guy, Putin attacks, vote in the wrong guy, Putin doesn't attack. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
And there it is, the old leftist rhetoric that Putin is steering the American political process. It's become the automatic opt out when forced to own up to weak Democrat policies and their consequences.
Wait, I want to play too: 'Sorry, Mike, but your assertion appears to be a classic Russian disinformation campaign.' Am I doing it right?
Good gawd, Putin is (conveniently) around every corner with you folks.
Let's talk abstractly.
There are levels of closeness that countries can have militarily. From most distant to closest:
0. I do nothing for you.
1. I sell non lethal items to you.
2. I sell weapons to you.
3. I give you non lethal things for free.
4. I give you weapons.
5. I give you access to my intelligence and surveillance.
6. I train your guys on my soil
7. I send my guys to you in support or training roles.
8. I send my guys to you in front line roles.
Under Obama we were at a 3 with Ukraine. Trump 1st term took us to a 4, but for a small number of weapons. Biden quickly took us to a 6 prior to Russia's invasion. Trump is now trying to take us back to a 1 or a 2.
Have I said anything false? Before we draw conclusions I just want us to agree on the facts and the sequence of events.
(03-02-2025, 11:37 AM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 10:22 AM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]If the mineral rights deal is a de facto security deal, and is advertised as such to the world, the Russians wouldn't dare attack.
Thems the bonuses when you're the most powerful country on the planet. We can throw our weight around. I know that's hard to believe after four years of meat puppet and that trainwreck administration which loudly proclaimed the U.S. are pushovers and presented us as the world's doormat, but it's not like that now.
However, I will concede your point if another impotent Democrat gains office. In that case, Ukraine would be the least of our worries and it would be left to Europe to do its duty. But that's doubtful considering the puling, supine ideology they've embraced.
Zelensky and Rulers of the Ukraine are idiots that over played there hand with Putin.
You mean "their" hand.
Quote:They embarrassed him on the world stage and got Croatia physically taken from them,
First of all, it's Crimea - not Croatia. Croatia is a country created on the dissolution of Yugoslavia.
Putin didn't invade Crimea because he was embarrassed by Zelensky. Putin invaded Crimea because he aims to reclaim most of Eastern Europe to the USSR borders. Where did you learn geography/history from Trump U?
Quote:their country invaded, people killed and towns destroyed.
Zelensky is not to blame for Putin's actions.
Quote:He then overplayed his hand with Trump and embarrassed him in the oval office.
With or without Zelensky, Trump embarrasses himself every time he's in front of a camera or a mic.
Quote:Years from now this event will be studied in universities as how to NOT do this.
Years from now historians in universities will be studying what psychopathology overtook the American electorate that made them even consider electing sexist, racist, money laundering, tax cheating game show host and failed businessman to the Oval Office in 2016.
(03-02-2025, 07:11 PM)TDOSS Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 11:37 AM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]Zelensky and Rulers of the Ukraine are idiots that over played there hand with Putin.
You mean "their" hand.
Quote:They embarrassed him on the world stage and got Croatia physically taken from them,
First of all, it's Crimea - not Croatia. Croatia is a country created on the dissolution of Yugoslavia.
Putin didn't invade Crimea because he was embarrassed by Zelensky. Putin invaded Crimea because he aims to reclaim most of Eastern Europe to the USSR borders. Where did you learn geography/history from Trump U?
Quote:their country invaded, people killed and towns destroyed.
Zelensky is not to blame for Putin's actions.
Quote:He then overplayed his hand with Trump and embarrassed him in the oval office.
With or without Zelensky, Trump embarrasses himself every time he's in front of a camera or a mic.
Quote:Years from now this event will be studied in universities as how to NOT do this.
Years from now historians in universities will be studying what psychopathology overtook the American electorate that made them even consider electing sexist, racist, money laundering, tax cheating game show host and failed businessman to the Oval Office in 2016.
You went to the trouble to parse all that to say absolutely nothing of value? WOW ! that must have left a mark.
(03-02-2025, 05:13 PM)WingerDinger Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 05:07 PM)TDOSS Wrote: [ -> ]MAGAs wants to have sympthy for Russians.... This is hilarious.
From the same country that spent hundreds of years dominating their neighbors economically and militarily. It's a little hard to have sympathy for them. Dont you not think, or are you historicially challenged?
Another lie from this pathetic subhuman.. [BLEEP] Russia too, just the same as [BLEEP] Ukraine and [BLEEP] liberals as well.. You're all trash..
How sad for you. The EU is the United States' largest economic partner, its largest investment partner, and second-largest trading partner. Total U.S.-EU trade was $298 billion in 1997, up from $270 billion in 1996. This two-way trade supports more than 6 million jobs on both sides of the Atlantic (US Dept. of State).
We should care about every country on this planet because each has the potential to make our lives better or worse in myriad ways and vice versa. Like it or not we share this globe; there's nowhere to go when we burn all of our bridges.
![[Image: Screenshot-2025-03-02-at-6-39-44-PM.png]](https://i.postimg.cc/z3mc8KkF/Screenshot-2025-03-02-at-6-39-44-PM.png)
(03-02-2025, 02:40 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 02:38 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]First, we have one vote to risk nuclear war with Russia, which happens to be led by a maniacal dictator. All to save the guy who decided to piss him off. (Mr. Z)
Second, I am an American born and raised. You have no right to tell me how to think in order to be one. This rhetoric as was popular the last few years in silencing people with opposing views ( a Nazi tactic) but are now being ignored. Unless you are just trying to get a rise from me. I now have to question your motives.
I'm starting to suspect English is your second language, because all I said was "should". I am not demanding you think a certain way. That would be unamerican of me. I am telling you that you should think a certain way, and yes you are free to ignore my opinion on that.
But your first claim is more troubling than your second. You claim that Mr. Z did something to piss Putin off. What was it? Ukraine has been trying to join NATO ever since they got independence, so it's not that.
Aren't they the same thing? Because they sound like the same thing. Either way you're telling someone to do something.
Good grief.
(03-02-2025, 10:38 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 07:11 PM)TDOSS Wrote: [ -> ]You mean "their" hand.
First of all, it's Crimea - not Croatia. Croatia is a country created on the dissolution of Yugoslavia.
Putin didn't invade Crimea because he was embarrassed by Zelensky. Putin invaded Crimea because he aims to reclaim most of Eastern Europe to the USSR borders. Where did you learn geography/history from Trump U?
Zelensky is not to blame for Putin's actions.
With or without Zelensky, Trump embarrasses himself every time he's in front of a camera or a mic.
Years from now historians in universities will be studying what psychopathology overtook the American electorate that made them even consider electing sexist, racist, money laundering, tax cheating game show host and failed businessman to the Oval Office in 2016.
You went to the trouble to parse all that to say absolutely nothing of value?
I guess there's no value in you learning what the [BLEEP] you're talking about ?!!? Perhaps you're right. But hey, keep thinking Russia invaded Croatia. It adds such credibility to your posts.
You get what you give. So tell me, which version of Earth is the one where Russia took Croatia from Ukraine?
Quote:WOW ! that must have left a mark
Apologies. It certainly wasn't my intent. If it did, I'm sure if you wear enough makeup, nobody will notice.
(03-02-2025, 11:03 PM)TDOSS Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 10:38 PM)Jag149 Wrote: [ -> ]You went to the trouble to parse all that to say absolutely nothing of value?
I guess there's no value in you learning what the [BLEEP] you're talking about ?!!? Perhaps you're right. But hey, keep thinking Russia invaded Croatia. It adds such credibility to your posts.
You get what you give. So tell me, which version of Earth is the one where Russia took Croatia from Ukraine?
Quote:WOW ! that must have left a mark
Apologies. It certainly wasn't my intent. If it did, I'm sure if you wear enough makeup, nobody will notice.
Dude I edited that post myself correcting my Croatia mistake almost immediately after posting it. Not something I will lose sleep over. You may if you wish ...
Was the mark it left on you too deep for your make up? Very Sorry. You'll get well before your married.
(03-02-2025, 07:30 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 06:15 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]Let's talk abstractly.
There are levels of closeness that countries can have militarily. From most distant to closest:
0. I do nothing for you.
1. I sell non lethal items to you.
2. I sell weapons to you.
3. I give you non lethal things for free.
4. I give you weapons.
5. I give you access to my intelligence and surveillance.
6. I train your guys on my soil
7. I send my guys to you in support or training roles.
8. I send my guys to you in front line roles.
Under Obama we were at a 3 with Ukraine. Trump 1st term took us to a 4, but for a small number of weapons. Biden quickly took us to a 6 prior to Russia's invasion. Trump is now trying to take us back to a 1 or a 2.
Have I said anything false? Before we draw conclusions I just want us to agree on the facts and the sequence of events.
Go on.
OK, does Putin want our number with Ukraine to be higher, or lower?
(03-02-2025, 11:16 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 07:30 PM)homebiscuit Wrote: [ -> ]Go on.
OK, does Putin want our number with Ukraine to be higher, or lower?
Irrelevant. The U.S. and Europe want the war ended. It's the goal at this point to stop the hostilities in order to hold further talks and it shouldn't be difficult because both sides are exhausted in every sense, although Russia remains the stronger one. It's a matter of changing the demanding bellicose rhetoric on both sides towards the direction of peace. This is why Zelinsky got jumped. He believes he has the heft to question future U.S. diplomatic relations with Russia. He doesn't. Ukraine is the little guy who held his own for a while against a bigger and stronger opponent, but predictably, he's destined to eventually lose the fight and thus is bidding from a position of weakness - despite a combined $400B in aid from the U.S. and Europe.
Additionally, with the long term in mind, Russia will be assuaged. For good or bad, they are an international mover and shaker. They're in a position of power because they are a major player in the global arena. In the following decades, Russia is who the world will continue to deal with. Not Ukraine.
Like the U.S., Russia is big and powerful and can throw its weight around too. Love it or hate it, that's the rules of the road for international relations.
There really are more dimensions to this situation than simply trying to manufacture another Russia collusion lie.
(03-02-2025, 10:50 PM)americus 2.0 Wrote: [ -> ] (03-02-2025, 02:40 PM)mikesez Wrote: [ -> ]I'm starting to suspect English is your second language, because all I said was "should". I am not demanding you think a certain way. That would be unamerican of me. I am telling you that you should think a certain way, and yes you are free to ignore my opinion on that.
But your first claim is more troubling than your second. You claim that Mr. Z did something to piss Putin off. What was it? Ukraine has been trying to join NATO ever since they got independence, so it's not that.
Aren't they the same thing? Because they sound like the same thing. Either way you're telling someone to do something.
Good grief.
No "should" is a suggestion backed by some sort of reason statement. "You should save your money". "Must" is a command. "You must pay taxes."
"As a red blooded American, you should not care about Russia's historical desire to control countries like Poland and Lithuania."
There's no command there. Just an appeal. Although if there are a lot of people like you who aren't able to tell the difference between appeals and commands, it would explain a lot about what's happened to political discourse since 2010.